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I Was Serving God... But I Was Exhausted | Guest: John Bentley

• Kayley Bishop

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What if the beliefs you formed as a child are still shaping your relationship with God today?

In this episode, John Bentley shares how childhood experiences quietly fueled a lifelong need to prove his worth through achievement, leadership, and even serving God. Together, we explore how the beliefs we form early in life can shape the way we operate for decades, why so many Christians unknowingly tie their identity to productivity, and the life-changing difference between doing for God and doing with Him.

If you've ever struggled with burnout, people pleasing, workaholism, or feeling like you have to earn your value, this conversation offers a biblical path toward healing, freedom, and lasting rest.

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John:

I was constantly having to do to feel like I had value- Mm and for God to see me and my value. he shared with me, that your doing comes from a place of hurt. I would say my family was most important to me, but my behavior didn't show that.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

So behavior is believable, and I learned that- Yeah … I can't talk my way out of something I behaved my way into.

Kayley:

well, hello, Bible Bish Universe. Welcome to the show. If this is your first time, I'm so glad to see you, even though I can't see you. You could see me maybe, or maybe you're just listening in. Um, I'm so glad that you found this little podcast, and I'm really excited about my guest today. I wish you could be in the studio with me right now with him because there is a peace about this man that just makes you wanna rest. And, um, we know that that kind of peace only comes from the Lord, and so that's just a testament to the man that I have in front of me. His name is John Bentley, and, um, he's a father, husband, and I would say a titan when it comes to leadership. And he knows a lot about leadership and how to make good leaders. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna talk a little bit about that. Um, but we're also just gonna dive right in with a word that the Lord gave me to talk about specifically with John. And I remember praying for this, uh, and the Lord said to me, "John Bentley is a doer." Mm-hmm. So I sent that to him, and I said, "What does this mean to you?" So we're just gonna start right there

John:

Thank you so much, Kayley, for having me. My pleasure. And when, when you, when you sent that and I read the word doer, you know, the first thing that hit me was taking me back to my past and recognizing that I just pour in and make things happen and serve others, but I was doing it thinking I was doing it for God. Mm. And then it hit me, you are trying to do it for God, but you're trying to make it all happen. Mm. And so I recognized, and he shared with me, that your doing comes from a place of hurt.

Kayley:

Ooh. Wait, so is this stuff you're re- being revealed to right now, or is this-

John:

It's been revealed before, but what He's giving to me now is how to help people recognize when their emotions are taking over and their decisions are from fear or from hurt. Okay.'Cause I believe those are the two main things we deal with. Hurt comes from the past-

Kayley:

Right… John: but it drives how we Yeah.

John:

And then we'll make those decisions just to feel okay in the moment-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: but we don't you just talked about. Mm.

John:

And that was me. I was constantly having to do to feel like I had value- Mm and for God to see me and my value.

Kayley:

Mm. I can relate to that. I feel like I've gone through cycles of, oh, I need to be productive for God, or just productive in general, and if I'm not, then I'm worthless. And I actually went through a lot of that in the last half of 25- Right … and feeling that worthlessness and feeling like, oh, I don't have anything on the horizon that I'm working on. Mm. Like, what am I doing? Do I even have any value anymore? And God allowed me to sit there. He allowed me to sit there- Yes … and be really uncomfortable in it. And I would pray. I'm like, "You need to bring me something, Lord. You need to bring me something." And He just kind of go- He was quiet. Mm. He's like, "No, we're actually gonna dig up this root that got real deep in you."

John:

There you go.

Kayley:

This performance root, and it's still, I'm still a work in progress in that area, but man, did it… It's uncomfortable.

John:

Well, I'm, I'm coaching leaders right now, and one of the most often questions to get, get to ask is, "I, I want help with work-life balance." And work-life balance, I've discovered, is not a schedule. Mm. It's a belief.

Kayley:

Okay, unpack that.

John:

Going back to where you just said performance, that I've, I've, I, I've gotta perform. I can't fail. People have to know they can depend on me. But that belief goes back to what they learned as a child being raised. Yeah. That for me to have love, for me to feel okay, I just want you to love me, Mama."Daddy, why don't you see me?" Mm. And until we address that belief and go to God's word and start praying out loud, saying out loud what he says about us.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

But also taking that thought captive like- Yeah … it says do in 2 Corinthians 10:5. Mm-hmm. And go to the obedience of God. Yeah. And then the next practical step is going to Philippians

4:

8, where those filters are. I don't know all of them- Yeah… by heart, and saying, "God, show me what's true about the lie I'm telling myself." Mm-hmm. And he's gonna say,"It's not, no truth."

Kayley:

Mm." John: But here you are your burdens to me." Yeah."I will lift them from you." And if you read Psalm 55, David is the perfect example for taking your thoughts captive, crying them out to God. Mm. Mm. And then in the end, closing that chapter saying, "But I trust in you, God." And that's where I struggled for Till 2018, and I was born in 1960. Wow We, we talk about grooming-

John:

Mm… Kayley: and, um, how oftentimes kind of condition, and I think it's, it's everything. It's not just your childhood of origin, but it's also the world and how it operates. It's upside down from heaven, or rather, heaven is upside down from the, the world. Yeah. It's like we just, we are built to perform and receive based on our performance, and we get so accustomed to that, that it's r- it's like a neural pathway that is very hard to rewrite. Um, but this is why the Scripture says, yeah, take every thought captive, make it obedient. In doing that, you naturally are rewiring your- Yes … your brain. Or the Scripture, it says,"Renew your mind every day." It's like, well, that's because He knows that we're immersed in the ways of the world- Mm-hmm… and we need to be yanked out of that method of thinking or… Well, what I love is how God's Word proves neuroscience. I know. Without calling it neuroscience. It's

Kayley:

so good. It's so good.

John:

And, and that rewiring, that neuroplasticity- Yeah … that science calls it, the only way that that is happening for me is me to truly read and study God's Word.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

For me to call it out loud- Yep … to say God's Word. Yep. And that is what is helping me because it, they say that neurons that fire together, wire together.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

So the more God's Word is getting in my brain and those neurons start firing, it goes from a one lane, one way highway to a six-way ex- lane expressway, and it pushes out all of that, that old wiring, those old one path lanes that you're not good enough, you gotta perform.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Oh, you've done that. What's next? And I'm constantly running, running, and then I wonder why I'm exhausted and I don't sleep well at night. It's because I'm not reading and studying God's Word-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm… John: and truly understanding meaning of some of those words. Oh, that's powerful.

John:

That's what He's turned me on to this year, and

Kayley:

it has been so freeing. Oh, so powerful. It's so good. Yeah, I've, I've kind of made it somewhat of a practice, um- Mm-hmm … to look for specific words. Like, when I feel like a verse is being highlighted to me, I'll be like, "Okay, I need… What is that word right there in the Greek?" Because there's something about that word, and studying Scripture these days for me is so much fun. Ah. And I remember when I was in high school, and I did it because I needed to. I wanted to be good. Mm. I wanted to be a good Christian, and I remember I'd fall asleep reading Scripture and just feel condemned or shamed because I just couldn't stay awake, or I wasn't diligent, and I would look at people I looked up to with- in the faith and think, "How is it that they are so- Mm studious and diligent with the Word?" But what I didn't know is that I didn't have hunger for it I had hunger for performance Yeah … not, not hunger for God.

John:

So it was transactional- Yes… Kayley: not transformative. Ugh. Yep. Yeah. That's it. So that's reminded me, for me, it was a legalism when I was learning. Yep. And because I couldn't do it, I went back to doing what I was very good, at least what I thought I was good at.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Working 18, 20 hours a day while I would say my family was most important to me, but my behavior didn't show that.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

So behavior is believable, and I learned that- Yeah … I can't talk my way out of something I behaved my way into.

Kayley:

Mm. Inter- you can't talk yourself out of something.

John:

You, I can't talk my, my way out of something I behaved my way into.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So I can go to God and talk and, and, and say everything that I wanna say. I'm sorry, God. I w- please forgive me, but then I go right back to the environment I was in, and I start practicing doing again to perform.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And really, the behavior is, for me, is read and study his word. It's cleansing. Oh, it's so cleansing. It's the truth, and he will reveal to you what… I'll just share my favorite, my favorite Bible verse- Yeah … which I use my mission.

Isaiah 57:

14, "Build up, build up, remove the obstacles out of my people's way." I may have missed

Kayley:

some of the words.

John:

Oh, that's so good. But you know what I discovered? Before he can build up, build up in me- he's got to look at what he needs, obstacles he needs to remove, and it's not out here

Kayley:

Yeah

John:

It's in the heart

Kayley:

Yeah

John:

I'm so thankful now when things don't go my way.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And I know that God's using it-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm… John: for His good, as Mm-hmm.

John:

But I didn't realize why until I read 8:29.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

It's to transform me more into the likeness of Christ, which will never be complete till I take my last breath. So now I get excited and go,"God, hold me here. Hold me here till you, till I learn the lesson that you want me to learn, 'cause you're not punishing me, you're making me more Christ-like."

Kayley:

And I mean, that's a scary prayer. It's a scary prayer. Ooh. Hold me here until you're not done doing that work in me. And, uh, I, I think also 'cause we have our own timelines of when we want things to happen. And actually not too long ago, I was doing an exercise with a group of women, and we were told to just ask the Lord what our deepest fear was. Ooh. Which is always a scary prayer, like, asking him that. Yeah. And I hadn't asked him that in a while. It's always good to do an audit of your fear- Yes … of your stress with the Lord, because he reveals some things you didn't know you were going through or working with. And he said to me, "Kayley, you're afraid of being pursued."

John:

Tell me more. What, what does that mean?

Kayley:

Well, I knew it meant two things, and it s- it, it made me so sad.

John:

Okay.

Kayley:

Because what I want more than anything is to be pursued. And so to have a fear of being pursued. Mm. And in two ways. Um, I've never had, uh, an industry deal or, like, publishing or record deal or anything like that, and I wanna be married again. Okay. And I knew it was a twofold thing of you're b- you're afraid to be pursued by a man, and you're afraid to be pursued by the industry. And I just started crying. Aw. I was like, wow, like, oh, this isn't good. I've gotta take care of this fear, because what I want is to be pursued by both. But then I took a- an accounting of my history and realized that the two major contracts I had in my life, my marriage contract- Okay and I also had a management contract at one point, both of them ended up in abuse.

John:

Oh, wow.

Kayley:

And I was like, "Wow, Lord, so you're showing me that I have this fear inside me that if I'm pursued, then that means I'm gonna be abused." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it's like you, you don't even know that your nervous system is holding on to stuff like that. That's right. But this is why we take things to the Lord and just get curious, and he showed me this, and I'm like, oh, great, now, now I can get healing here. Yes.'Cause I don't want that to be in the way of what God has for me or- Amen … what the next thing is.

John:

And that's exactly what Satan'll use against us- Yeah are those fears. And what you just reminded me of, talking about the nervous system, there's a book out there called The Body Keeps Score.

Kayley:

Yep.

John:

And, and so wh- while my mind may not remember exactly what happened, my body does, and that's what shows up and takes over. from my thoughts. So thank you for reminding us of that. Hmm, that's powerful.

Kayley:

Well, it's just our stories, right? Like, our testimonies are so potent and impactful to people. And gosh, anybody that's listening, if this resonates with you- Yeah … take, take it to the Lord and get healing, or I, I commission you to ask the Lord what your- Yes … deepest fear is. Don't leave this podcast before p- press pause right now. Don't leave the podcast before asking. Amen.

John:

Amen. And you know, th- that's reminding me the, the, the book there, the chap that I wrote, I went out to a writer's book retreat, and my mind was, "I've got to do all this research, and it's got to be perfect."

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And then the, the gentleman running it said, "Stop, John, stop. Stop. Just start free writing, and I want you to write the book to your 20-year-old self. And if it never gets published, don't care. Just get it out."

Kayley:

Yeah. That's good.

John:

And then all of a sudden, I looked at my life from age 63 back to my first memory and just started writing down things that occurred, situations and people, and that produced 28 stories.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

That is kind of the genesis of each chapter.

Kayley:

Of this specific book?

John:

This specific book.

Kayley:

The book that I'm holding is called I Lead Me: Choose Your Action, Earn Their Trust, Lead with Purpose. And so I know it's all about you can't make good leaders if you're not leading yourself well. Yeah. But yeah, y'all go get this book.

John:

And that started in 1992 when I was leaving the Air Force for a $25,000 buyout 'cause it would solve all the problems this 31-year-old father of two had.

Kayley:

Interesting.

John:

You can see right away there's, you know, there's, there's a issue there.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

And a gentleman shook a Coke can and asked me to open it. And I said no. He asked me why, and I told him. And then in a truthful and kind way, now get that.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

Truthful. Mm-hmm. Here's the facts. Mm-hmm. You're sharing them. And kind that I knew he cared about me.

Kayley:

Mm." John: Hey, that's what you do You spew all over people- Yeah… John: when you think And then he said, "Here's the lesson, John. Until you learn to lead yourself, you'll never earn the right to lead others. You will struggle, be frustrated, and limit your opportunities for success." Yeah.

John:

So I learned looking back that God pursues us with people to help us think differently, and this is what came to me recently. In Genesis 6, why did God flood the Earth?

Kayley:

Oh, because people were so depraved. It was so full of evil.

John:

And where did that come from? The thoughts of their imagination

Kayley:

Oh, yeah. Wow

John:

So what, what I heard you say that you did, what, what I've done, what we're asking your listening audience to do, is just sit down, and what are your thoughts that don't align with God's word? And don't use that as a way to beat you up. Use, use it as a data point to inform you

Kayley:

Well, if you're, if you're taking stock of those thoughts and then- Mm… subsequently beating yourself up, then that's not God as well. It's not God. I keep saying God is in the bu- business of building, not tearing down. Amen He will never, ever tear you down. He might convict you- Yeah… but any time I've ever had conviction from the Lord, it came with this sense of peace and this knowing that freedom was on the other side

John:

Yeah, truthful and kind

Kayley:

Yes

John:

Mm.

Kayley:

So good. It is. That was a good boss you had

John:

Yeah, g- outstanding. I got to work with him another two and a half years. I got to stay in the Air Force and work with him another two and a half years, and he set me up for my, my next assignment, 'cause he, he just knew what was in me.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

And he helped me recognize-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm… John: that, that I could me to be- Mm-hmm … if I'm willing to just sit and be with God and let Him heal me Do you think if it was someone else delivering that word, you would've rejected it?

John:

Probably so, because I might not have had the respect that I had for him. He was the most respected individual in a 1,200 person organization.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

Yeah Yeah, absolutely

Kayley:

But you knew he cared for you

John:

Just by the way he delivered it. And other people may have delivered it in the past- Yeah … that way-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm

John:

but I couldn't see it because I was blind.

Kayley:

Mm. But

John:

what he said is, "I wanna share a life lesson with you because you're leaving the Air Force-" Mm "… never to return." And yet I spent 21 years in the Air Force.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

Wow. Yeah, it's those words that they, they cut away the things that are dead.

John:

Yeah, that's right.

Kayley:

And we, we just, we just need those people in our lives, and sometimes God will make you that person too, to speak life.

John:

That's right.

Kayley:

But what's interesting to me is sitting with you now, like, I- it's hard for me to even imagine you as this spewing Coke can, because you-… you're just… I c- I see you as a result of spending a lot of time in the rest of the Father.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

And it's, like, just flow- oozing from you. Oh, thank you so much It's oozing from you. It's, like, been overwhelming as I'm sitting here with you.

John:

Thank you so much. I, I, and what God has encouraged me to say when people share that with me, now that I know that I'm, I'm more like Christ than I've ever been- Mm even though I'll never be Christ, is, "Thank you for those confirming words."

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

So I think a lot of times is we can speak confirming words into people, and we give them permission to do something different that they've never done before.

Kayley:

Yeah. Yeah. Someone actually said something to me the other night. He said, "You know, I y- I can see the Holy Spirit on you." And I was like, "And I'm feeling so chaotic in my chest. I'm feeling way less than. I'm feeling, like, sense of rejection in my heart, um, from this, this environment that I was in." Mm-hmm. And yet that person said, "I can see Holy Spirit on you." And I was like, "I don't know if you're lying or not, but I'm just gonna receive that." Amen. And because it just shows me how big God's grace is that someone could see God in me- Mm… even though I feel this way.

John:

And I encourage all of you, based on what Kayley just said, she's talking about David to me right now with the chaos he had and him running- Mm … from people. He always trusted in God.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Always. Mm.

Kayley:

Well, and if he didn't, there was a reckoning. I mean, now I, when I read about David- I'm really careful to comb through the scripture- Okay … and, and recognize what's not being said. Wow. And there were a couple things, there are a couple moments where David made decisions from a place of panic- Yeah and not from a place of peace, and it was costly. People were killed. And, and it doesn't say specifically, "Oh, David did not seek the counsel of the Lord," but when you see David specifically seeking the counsel of the Lord in all these other areas- Mm-hmm … and then he doesn't there, you, it sticks out. And, um, but that's just part of the fun of, like, reading scripture and recognizing what's not on the page.

John:

Yeah. And what you're helping reminding me of is to do the same with myself when a- Mm … decision's made and it doesn't go as anticipated or it hurt or it was costly.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Determining was it based on John being the doer-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: and, "You're gonna it for you," versus what you just reminded me of, doing it with God. Yeah.

John:

Mm.

Kayley:

Yeah. And just because we do something with God doesn't mean that it's gonna be rainbows and roses on the other side. Like, I get reminded of that. It's, it's a very sobering concept, because walking with God does lead to a rich, abundant life. Uh, maybe not in the ways that the world would say it's rich and abundant, but it does lead you to an abundance. And, but there are still times that God has said, "Hey, I want you to go do this." And then on the other side of obedience, of that specific obedience, I didn't f- it was, it was rough. Yeah. Like, things actually felt w- worse in a way. And that's where we just have to take the confusion back to God and be like,"What happened here?" He's like, a- and, and then I get new lessons about how he's operating. He's like, "I don't, I didn't promise you that your expectation of obedience would come to pass." Mm-hmm."My expectation of your obedience is going to come to pass." And it's like, man, like, you are God and I am not.

John:

Amen. You are God and I am not. And that, that is so freeing when, when, when I, or I think I'm hearing with you, can sit with that and go, "Wow, it's your obedience, God. Thank you for letting me be part of it and learn this lesson."

Kayley:

Yeah. Mm. Because it actually goes back to the performance thing of like, "Look at me, God, I'm listening to you and I'm gonna go do what you said and I'm gonna get a gold star for it."

John:

There you go. and- What's interesting w- when I look back on my life growing up, your listeners and folks watching can finish this sentence, sentence just like you can. Children are to be seen and not-

Kayley:

Heard… John: yeah, so I Mm.

John:

Don't cry or give you something to cry about.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So I learned I couldn't express myself, and then this is gonna hurt you more than it hurts me. So I learned that even though you love me and you're hurting me, I'm hurting you more and I don't know why.

Kayley:

Oh, geez. Where did these statements come from?

John:

W- and, and I think it's just parents doing what they know, that, you know, from, from there,

Kayley:

but- Just like passing down- Exactly passed down phrases.

John:

So, so those patterns become so strong across generations.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And that was my dad. My mom learned to rescue, though, if we didn't do what she thought Dad wanted done. She would res- come behind and clean it up. So I learned that even if I make mistakes, somebody's gonna save me. Now, take that into your adulthood.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

I became a workaholic. I became a people pleaser.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

I, I probably wasted a million dollars if we went back and looked at it just trying to be okay.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

And then when I started understanding my thoughts and that what happened to me shouldn't have happened to me, I'm not holding anybody a villain or a persecutor- Right'cause they did what they knew- Right … and I love them and I learned a lot of great things from them, but now it's my responsibility- Mm-hmm … to not let… I used to say I, I'd l- I'd lived in the past. I don't say that anymore. I let my past come into my present.

Kayley:

Oh, that's good.

John:

Right. And so now I can recognize when that's happening and just take a deep breath and go, "Hey, John, you're okay, buddy."

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Y- you've been through this before, and when you go through things like this with God, it always turns out well.

Kayley:

It always does.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

You kinda touched on something that's, I think, really important, 'cause it is easy to just blame our parents for our problems. I heard a really wise pastor preach on the topic of blame-

John:

Okay

Kayley:

a few years ago, and, um, she said something really powerful. She's a very gifted, uh, preacher. But she said, "Wherever you lay the blame- Mm … is wherever you give the power to change."

John:

Wow.

Kayley:

And she said, "No matter what the circumstance is, even if you're a victim of abuse or whatever it is, if you can find a morsel of responsibility, that's the hinge. That's the, that's that very p- little place that you can grow from."

John:

Absolutely.

Kayley:

And, um, and it's just a good reality check of am I laying blame on everyone else, or am I really taking responsibility, and am I growing and learning from it? That's right. And it doesn't take away the consequence of someone's actions if they hurt me. Doesn't take away that at all. It doesn't make me their best friend, either. Yeah. But it does allow me an opportunity to grow. And, um, and I like that you're not blaming the people that raised you even though they're flawed and imperfect, just like I am flawed and imperfect. But if we can, yeah, like you said, bring the past to the present and make it obedient, submit it to God.

John:

That's right.

Kayley:

He fixes our story.' John: Cause it's interesting if we think about neuroscience, called the prefrontal cortex. Yeah. That's all the medical I know. Yep.

John:

But it doesn't fully develop until around age 25 or 26. Mm-hmm,

Kayley:

mm-hmm.

John:

So therefore, as children growing up, we're running off our survival and emotional state.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Brain state. We're just trying to feel safe and wanting to, do you see me? Do, uh, just connect with me. Do, do you- Yeah … love me? That's,

Kayley:

yeah.

John:

And so recognizing that, how do we help people process using this part of their brain and God's word so those survival and em- emotional instincts aren't running them?

Kayley:

You know, I heard, um, that a kid cannot survive and learn at the same time.

John:

That makes sense.

Kayley:

I don't know if that's true or not, but if you think about it, if, if you have a kid that's got a really bad family life, they're not, they're, they're focusing on surviving more than anything. Yeah. They're focusing on what you just said, am I seen, am I heard, am I known? But if you have a child that is seen, is heard and known, and feels completely secure in their family life, I mean, do you not see that kid excelling and learning and developing?

John:

Absolutely.

Kayley:

Absolutely, you do. And, uh, that, it's just kinda crazy, um, and not to say that people that had traumatic backgrounds aren't developed, but it is just another thing we can take to the Lord.

John:

Yeah. I, I like to think about where am I slip tri- slipping, tripping, and sometimes falling?

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And what's the underlying belief from that? For y- years, I had an unhealthy relationship with money.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

And it was all because if I had things-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: I'm okay. Look at me. People will see that I have value. Mm.

John:

Uh, and you know, also it, it led to performance around the position I had, the title. Look at me, what I've got behind my name. And all of that was from me just trying to feel like I'm okay.

Kayley:

Yeah, semblance of security

John:

Yeah. Now that God's Word, the more I'm in it, the more He tells me how much I'm loved, that I'm made in His image, that He's given me gifts to serve others. And when I do that humbly in love, now what I'm doing is doing with God, not-

Kayley:

Yeah for God For God.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

It's so hard. Like, how do you, what i- is there a practical way that you have learned to discern the difference between doing for God and doing with God?

John:

Yeah, for g- f- for God, what I find is that the troubles that I get into because I think I know what right is, it becomes heavy- Okay like I'm pulling a boulder uphill.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

It, things fail, there's people taking advantage of me, or I'm trying to manipulate people, and it just, I'm tired and I'm worn out, and no peace. But with God, even if it does not turn out the way I anticipated-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm… John: He shows me where Wow. Which is a gift.

John:

Yes.

Kayley:

Sometimes I wonder, like, am I gonna see the fruit of my obedience while I'm alive? I know it's kind of like a crazy thought, but-

John:

Here's what I think, though. You're gonna show up in heaven, and He's gonna welcome you into His, to, to heaven in His arms, and He's gonna thank you, and then He's gonna say, "Hey, turn around. Look at everybody that you impacted. Because you followed me and you were obedient to me and my Word."

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

That's what I think's gonna happen.

Kayley:

I, I hope that happens in heaven. Yeah. And not to, like, be excited about me, but, but to, I think the best, the best gift I could give in, is freedom to someone- Yeah because I exposed them to Jesus. And that's why this whole podcast exists, because I just, I want people to be invited into a deeper fellowship with God, because then they can get free, and they can taste the- Yeah… abundance that he, I've tasted. And it's so, it's so good that you can't keep it to yourself.

John:

Amen. Amen.

Kayley:

Nor do you want to.

John:

And the m- m- my you, you are a gift coin, I carry them with me everywhere I go.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

And when I sense someone's not having a good day, or if I'm at a fast food restaurant-

Kayley:

Uh-huh… John: I'll, I'll just ask do you like to do when you're not working here?" Mm.

John:

And sometimes it- it's a wonderful response. Other times, "I just go home and watch TV or play video games. I just sleep."

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

And I say, "Well, here's what I want you to know. I want you to know you are a gift, and gift is God's image fulfilled talent. So you're made in God's image to fulfill your talent and service to others." Think and pray on that because God

i- God's image is Genesis 1:

27. Mm-hmm.

Fulfill talent is 1 Peter 4:

10.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

Sometimes that'll lead to a deeper conversation where we'll get to talk about Christ. Other than that, what I've learned is my role is to use my gifts to plant seeds.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

It's not my role to amplify it.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

And I've watched what I've, I've shared with people, given them things, and then they start using the materials, and they c- they amplify it more than I ever thought of and used to. I'd go, "Well, how come I didn't do that?"

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

But now I go, "Thank you, God. Thank you for taking it further than I ever thought it could."

Kayley:

Well, it kinda takes the pressure off of you 'cause- Mm… I mean, I, I, I know that I've got gifts, and there have been times where I'm like, "Well, why am I not doing more? Why am…" And sure, there could be some limiting beliefs on the other side of that question that God wants to take care of. There could be some laziness, I don't know. Um, but also, I think when God has commissioned you to do something and you become his partner, he now carries the, the… I always say the onus is on him. You want this thing to go further? It's gonna have to- Ah … it's, it's on, it's in your court, buddy. I just put it right back over on him.

John:

He, he is doing that in my life.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

Doing that in my life. So in, in December of 2010, I lost my oldest daughter to prescription drug addiction, and that turned into eight years of me wandering around in the wilderness.

Kayley:

Eight years.

John:

I actually gained 50 pounds. Still carrying about 20 of it, but my stretchy pants are getting smaller.

Kayley:

Oh, there you go. My stretchy

John:

pants. And I- … I wrestled with the guilt and the regret, and it came from a question I never asked my wife, which Natalie would've been a bonus baby for Laura- Mm-hmm'cause it's our second marriages. I wanted to bring Natalie into our home.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

Not that, not that we could've saved her. Potentially though create an environment where she had the opportunity to make different choices 'cause she would feel safe and loved.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

But I never asked Laura, "Sweetheart, can Natalie move in with us?" And you know why I didn't ask her?

Kayley:

Why?

John:

Thought of my imagination. She'd say, "No, I don't want a drug addict in my home."

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

That really weighed on me for a long time. Now, I've never shared that with her. She probably won't see this podcast, but I'll never share that with her because then that would me potentially be putting a burden on her.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm. Wow.

John:

And then a friend in Murfreesboro, Kevin McNulty, came to me about two days before the ninth anniversary of Natalie's death, and he said, "This isn't you. You have gifts to offer. You're not using them. You're working yourself to death. You're overeating. And here's what I want you to do, John. I want you to sit down two days from now, the anniversary of Natalie's death, and you write a letter to your future self and date it five years into the future And for the first time, I started thinking about, and God started pouring into me how he wanted to use this- Mm … for his glory. And he said, "When you write the letter, share it with people, 'cause there's people that love you, and God will use to come alongside you and produce whatever's written in this letter will become true." Wow. It will happen.

Kayley:

I mean, that, that had to have taken so much faith. I- And was that, like, the hardest thing you've ever written?

John:

Well, I think, again, it goes back to truth and kindness.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

Like with Russell White.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Somebody showed up at my doorstep-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: that loved me- Mm-hmm… John: and helped Mm.

John:

And so I wrote the letter, and I wrote the letter about, "Look what the Holy Spirit has done."

Kayley:

Oh, that's so

John:

good. It was creating a foundation. It was writing the You Are a Gift book, and the whole purpose of the foundation is to donate money to faith-based inpatient treatment centers-

Kayley:

Wow… John: that use it as a overcome prescription drug addictions, to the moms that can't afford it. Wow.

John:

So I'm getting ready to write the next letter.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

Getting ready-

Kayley:

This is such a powerful concept.

John:

Getting ready to write the next letter, because I, I retired in December of 2023 after 41 years of public service. Mm. 21 in the Air Force, 20 as a federal civilian. And I said, "I'm retired, God." He says, "Nah, you're not retired, John. This is renewal."

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

He said, "But I got a question for you. This gifting I've given you and you've also helped amplify, would you go do it for free if you never got paid a dime again?" I swallowed real hard and went y- y- y- y- yes, Lord He said, "All right then. There's gonna be a lot of free and some fee. When they call, you go."

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

So, so in my position now, all the profits that make from me showing up, that's what funds the foundation.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

The goal is to create an endowment that can continue after my wife and I pass on. A lot of the free turned into fee. A lot of it is just, "Hey, let us buy books. You, you come share your message."

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

And so I don't know what next is, looks like, but I'm gonna write that letter based on what God's putting into me.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

And we'll see five years from now when I'll, I'll be 70 what it looks like. I'm excited.

Kayley:

This is a really powerful concept. I've… There's other podcasts I've listened to, especially, like, on the therapy side of things, that I'm just really fascinated when I hear- Mm-hmm someone coach somebody else. And, um, oftentimes I'll hear coaches say, like, "Why don't you write a letter to that person that hurt you? But don't send it to him. This is you just writing it out." And it's a, it's a form of emotional healing or inner healing- Mm-hmm … which I think is absolutely powerful. Uh, o- oftentimes it includes forgiving them and… or just whatever, whatever you need to say to the people that wronged you. But this is a very different concept, to write a letter to your future self from the place of, "Look at you now." Yeah."Look at you now." It's

John:

prophetic.

Kayley:

It is prophetic. Yeah. And it's… It, but it's dreaming with God.

John:

Mm.

Kayley:

you know, God asked me to dream a few years ago because I didn't know how, and I didn't know- Yeah I didn't know how. And I wrote all of these dreams down, but it, it's different. I think writing that letter is, is kind of a continuation of that, of that process and of that practice. And wow, what a powerful thing. So when you read that letter five years from when you wrote it, what, w- how did you feel?

John:

A lot of happy tears, a lot of recognizing that, that,"John, you can't do everything and you can't do it alone."

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And if people don't know your thoughts, where you wanna go, then no one's gonna come around you to help you.'Cause people wanna help you.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And they, they have more ways of finding ways to help you than I could think of on my own. Because I was… You know, I, I was taught you gotta do it all on your own.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

When I worked for Golden Corral from 17 to age 21 and they made me a manager of a million-dollar steakhouse in 1981-

Kayley:

Wow… John: that was producing"We're gonna get it to 25 or 26, and you know how I'm gonna go about it?" People like me that it'll happen. Well, what happened? People would ask for raises, so my labor costs went up. People were stealing food from me, so my food costs went up. And it didn't take but about six months to start turning it into a nonprofit organization. Wow.

John:

And I knew that it was time for me to leave before I got fired. And all that came from a place of hurt.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

That if you like me and I do what you want, everything's gonna be okay. And that's wasn't true at all.

Kayley:

No, they just walked all over you. Yeah.

John:

They knew how to manipulate me, take advantage of me.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

And I wasn't serving them at all.

Kayley:

No And that's one of the, I think the hardest things. Like, I feel like there are certain people that fall into that trap. I was definitely one where I just need to be liked, and it's that, it's that concept of survival. Yeah.'Cause if I'm liked, then I survive. And we put all of our value in the hands of people instead of the hands of God.

John:

Amen.

Kayley:

And that's our first mistake, and you don't realize you're living that way until you do, and then you realize, oh, I guess I'm bowing down to man.

John:

Yes.

Kayley:

And God says that's a snare. He's like, "The fear of man is a snare." Absolutely."If you trust in me, I will keep you safe." But man, the people pleasing thing, I've heard people say like,"I'm a recovering people pleaser," and I am, too. Because I still wanna be liked, you know? Yeah. Like, I think having the m- favor of man can really help you in your pursuit. God didn't say like, "I want you to make enemies." He d- … he didn't commission you to do that. He commissions you to make disciples, and sometimes you have to be likable to make a disciple. Um, not always, and we also know that Jesus was highly controversial and heavily persecuted. But, um, but anyway, it's just remembering that if we put our value in the hands of man, things are bound to turn upside down.

John:

Yeah, absolutely. And what you're reminding me of on the people pleasing side, sometimes that's healthy.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

But I've gotta have that discernment to know when it is and isn't, and I can only get that from God.

Kayley:

Well, it's just like the kindness of God.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

There, there's restrictions on it. Once it's- Talk

John:

more about that.

Kayley:

Well, so this is one thing, I think I've talked about on the podcast before about this specific concept, but like, if you picture, um, God's kindness as like a circle.

John:

Okay.

Kayley:

If you step outside that circle- Mm … that's when you're stepping into enablement. That's when you're step- stepping into manipulation because kind people can be manipulative, too.

John:

Yes.

Kayley:

When they do things for you that have strings attached to them, uh, when you step outside, that's when you become a doormat. That's when you get taken advantage of. But God's kindness would never lead to that kind of thing.

John:

Mm.

Kayley:

And it doesn't mean God's kindness is small. God's kindness is massive.

John:

No. Yeah.

Kayley:

But there are restrictions as to what it actually is.

John:

Well, you're reminding me, and I, I don't know the exact book and verse, but what I ask for, if it's within God's will and lines up with his word, he's going to deliver. Yeah. So if I'm asking for something and, and, and I'm expecting his kindness and he's gonna make it happen, it's outside of his will and his word-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

Yeah… Kayley: it's not gonna happen. Mm-mm. Not gonna happen at all.

Kayley:

Mm-mm. Mm. Speaking of God's will, I heard this recently and I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's so good." Um, it's talking about the most dangerous place you could ever be is outside of God's will.

John:

Mm.

Kayley:

Because that's where you're all, you're out all on your own, doing it all on your own, out of your own strength, your own resource, your own wit, your own intelligence. But as soon as you get right back into God's will, you've got your partner who does all the heavy lifting Who has an easy yoke of very light burden and you feel amazing

John:

And that's how you know you're doing with God, right?

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

That's- Yeah … what that reminded me of. Mm.

Kayley:

Wow. So tell me a little bit more about leaving, I guess, your… Well, leaving retirement into your, what did you call it? Renewal. Renewal. Yeah. Because you've been leading companies and giving them strategy for leadership for how many years now?

John:

If we go back to my last assignment in the Air Force through my 20 years, so that would've been nine- uh, b- that would've been 2003 when I retired from the Air Force. Okay. So 23, 25 years. If you count my, my Air Force time, that takes it back to about, when I was in leadership, about 35 years.

Kayley:

Okay. Yeah. And you've been… When you, when you go and give, I guess, presentations on- Mm-hmm … on leadership, are they mostly in the secular r- areas?

John:

It's secular and some faith-based. I'm working with a client right now who is faith-based. Mm-hmm. It's, it's a healthcare organization, and we're doing a 12-month program with them.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

So there's every other month is group work together, and in between those group sessions, it's individual coaching.

Kayley:

Nice.

John:

Now, what I've found is that when we do both, we're helping people change those behaviors- Yeah that they say they wanna change.

Kayley:

Yeah. Yeah.

John:

And go ahead. Do

Kayley:

people sense that you know the Lord when they work with you in that environment?

John:

They do. Mm-hmm. Um, w- w- with this group, and when we're doing some group things that… And, and I know they're faith-based- Yeah … it's, it's pretty easy to go, "Let's give 'em, on three, give 'em a hallelujah. One, two, three." And then we'll do, "On three, give'em an amen." Mm. And, you know, and it lifts up. And the one thing that the CEO just said to me re- recently, he said, "Thank you for being so approachable."

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So, so what God has put on my heart is I call 'em my BE values.

Kayley:

B- BE

John:

values. B-E. B-E. Be approachable.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

Be teachable, and be helpful. It's in that order.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

So, and it's the behavior, one behavior that backs up each of those, it's in the acronym W-I-N, win.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

So to be approachable, I gotta welcome different and divergent thinking so we can make the best decision with the information available- Yeah … knowing it'll probably change later. Now, if I'm approachable, I can be teachable.

Kayley:

Yep.

John:

So I'm gonna inquire with curiosity to strengthen a relationship, build trust, and gain buy-in.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

And if I can be helpful when warranted, it's never stop serving others with my God-given gifts.

Kayley:

Mm. Never stop serving others.

John:

So where does that come into play? I'm human. Can I get emotionally triggered still? Yeah. I can.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

But if I catch myself and say this one question… So now the past is coming into the present, right? Yeah. That seven-year-old little boy's feeling challenged again.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Am I being approachable? You see, I just interrupted that emotion.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So if we look at the hand as the brain- Mm-hmm and I've got my, got here my finger running up in between my heel pads, that's survival brain state.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Am I safe? 90% of everything we go through, 99% is a perceived threat.

Kayley:

Mm. Interesting.

John:

This is my emotional, my emotional state. Am I connected? Uh-huh. Blame, shame, the things you'll see. But this part of my brain, this is the prefrontal cortex. When it's engaged, it manages these subconscious pieces and lets me show up in a way that represents God. So I call this my, my Christ-led state. Uh-huh. And I call this my flesh-led state.

Kayley:

Interesting.

John:

But I've gotta be able to, to pause and take just a deep breath and go, "Wait a minute, John. You're okay." Are you being approachable? No. Okay, well, you're okay. Y- y- you're not a threat. W- what are you gonna do to be a teacher? Well, now I need to ask a question. When I'm asking a question, I'm re-engaging that spiritual brain.

Kayley:

Yeah. Well, you're just taking yourself out of your emotions and making it about everybody else.

John:

That's perfect.

Kayley:

And, um, that's what I tell people all the time, like just in the performance landscape of Nashville. Okay. When people are like, "Oh, it's so scary, like performing for my peers or whatever." Mm-hmm. And, and I said, "My trick is to not make it about me. I just make it about them because if I make it about them, then I can't make it about me and I'm not thinking about me anymore." When I think about me is when I cut myself off from everyone else. So if I just go forward, I mean, it's impossible to not like have any recognition of yourself at all. But if I could just, if I just go forward trying to serve the room and steward the people in front of me, then I'm gonna leave feeling way more fulfilled 'cause it's less about do they- Yeah … see me? Do they want me? Do they like me? And it's all about how can I show them that they're loved and seen and known- Mm … and appreciated. And gosh, that's so much better.

John:

That's walking in God's purpose which, which goes back to the coin. You are a gift. Yeah. Made in God's image. Fill your talent and service to others. On the other side of that it says, "Serve humbly in love."

Galatians 5:

13, and that's what I, what I hear you doing.

Kayley:

I think the next layer for me that I'm kind of deciphering right now and navigating right now is, okay, when I approach these other people, great that I have that heart posture, right? Okay. But my methodology has to be in line with the Lord, and, um, God is showing me that sometimes I wanna bring a sledgehammer to a situation. Yeah. And he's like, "I just wanted you to bring like a light rod." Mm. Like, you have to recognize that these people in front of you, 'cause I do have that heart to make disciples and to collect the harvest, right? Okay. And show people Jesus. He's like, "You have to understand that this is a process of planting, of cultivating, planting, watering, and harvesting- Yeah and growing. And you, you let me tell you where that person is in the process, and you either just cultivate the soil- Or you just lay the seed down.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

You're not doing all of it in one fell swoop. It's not your job. This is why we have a team. Someone else is gonna come behind you and take care of the next part of the phase. And, um, just kind of remembering that, and again, seeing, "Oh, God, you're God and I'm not." And your process is beautiful, and sometimes I just need to put my sledgehammer down.

John:

That's such a great statement. Oh, mm.

Kayley:

But it's, it's a nuanced thing, and I'm just really thankful that God sees that I have a heart to do this and to do it well, and He's shown me all my blind spots.

John:

Yeah, love it. He's cutting away those pieces that-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: that, that thorny and cr- continuing to make your soil pure. Mm-hmm. And also, it's not, it's not on me to purify someone else's soil.

John:

No, no.

Kayley:

And it's not on me if the seed doesn't take to the root. Yeah. It's not on me because I can't, I can't control someone's fertility.

John:

Right. That's right.

Kayley:

Um, but I can control whether or not I'm gonna be obedient.

John:

Yes, and that they experience God's love through you.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

You, you're reminding me that a lot of times people come from being a rescuer-

Kayley:

Yeah… John: standpoint. They don't want people harmed. They're gonna take care of them. And what, what God showed me recently is I had an unhealthy attachment to rescuing people. Mm.

John:

And when I did that, He said, "John, you're keeping them a victim and not-" Wow… "letting them become a creator."

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

Now, that word creator right there in God's word in the very beginning- That's

Kayley:

so powerful… John: He said, "What, it's, creators, co-creators with me." Wow.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

That's really good. Yeah. And that goes way back to doing. Absolutely. All the way back. Like, and, um, so we're kind of running out of time at this point, but why don't you just tell me, and I guess really tell the audience, when it comes to John Bentley being a doer and hearing God have that word for, for you, what does that mean to you now? And how can you guide people into the correct way of doing for God, just this last little bit?

John:

Mm. I'm gonna pause for just a minute.

Kayley:

Okay.

John:

What God has shown me is I can show up with a scripted plan of even just facilitating a program

Kayley:

Yeah

John:

or coaching, and I wanna give someone an answer

Kayley:

Yeah

John:

is that my job is to be both physically and emotionally present.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

Most of my life I was physically present because I had resources, and I would use my money to take care of, especially the ones I loved that were in dire straits-

Kayley:

Uh-huh

John:

or on their death bed.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

But I did that to make me feel okay.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So now when I'm showing up, I'm both physically and emotionally present. I'm tuned in, and this is my belief. The Holy Spirit will guide me what to do next.

Kayley:

Yeah.

John:

So it's freeing to know that we're gonna achieve the objective, but how I go about that objective may not be what I planned.

Kayley:

Mm.

John:

So I wanna go back to the physical and e- and emotionally present.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

My daughter Natalie lived in Clarksville. They were in the Army. When things didn't go well, Dad showed up with money.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

But I wasn't emotionally present with her, not that, uh, that, that I was gonna do anything except just,"Sweetheart, I can't even imagine what this is like. I don't even know how to help you. I just wanna be with you, and I want you to know I love you unconditionally- Yeah … no matter

Kayley:

what." Mm-hmm.

John:

But I didn't do that because I was scared of that piece. I didn't know how to do that. Mm.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

All right? Now fast-forward My dad had a stroke and he was bedridden for four years. I'd show up to mom and what would I do?

Kayley:

Write her a check.

John:

Might not even go see Dad.

Kayley:

Wow.' John: Cause I didn't Wow. I couldn't fix it. I couldn't control it. Mm.

John:

Now let's fast-forward to April 9, 2023. My mom's in a nursing home. I'm feeling sadness and grief walking one day, and this is where it came to me. Name it to tame it, the emotion. No one ever taught me that.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

What does sadness mean? Sadness means that you're experiencing loss. Wait a minute. I haven't lost anybody. Mom's in nursing home. She's got dementia, and when I call her, it's mostly bad mom, and I feel like that seven-year-old little boy again, and I don't like that.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

It's a five-hour drive one way, 10-hour round trip. But then he said, "Go back and process this with your wife. You gotta process this loss." That was on 7 April. Here's what she said, "You're going, no excuses. Drive halfway, get a hotel room."

Kayley:

Mm-hmm." John: You're going to see your and this is how God works. I showed up that day in the lo- the, uh, lobby. They're doing a sermon, preaching, singing, and all's mom is saying is, "I wanna die, I wanna die, I wanna die." Wow. Her left arm is swollen up like your thigh. She was going into s- sepsis. She'd just gotten out of the hospital. When she would say, "I wanna die," I wanted to run. Wow.

John:

I wanted to run, but God told me to start touching her, and I'm crying, "Mama. Go ahead, Mom. It's okay if you wanna pass away, Mom. I, I would take the pain away if I could. I can't." And she became the healthy mom like I just fell off my bike and scraped my knee, and she started touching me. She said, "Oh, baby, don't cry. Don't cry. You know, God's always taking care of me."

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

Mom, we could write a book. Now I'm gonna say what she said to me, okay? She said, "Look, I gotta go pee."

Kayley:

I gotta go pee." John: And here's what I want you to go in that bathroom, and I want you to clean up your face and wipe away those tears 'cause you got a five-hour drive home, and I want you to do it safely." She said, "Now, when you get home, you kiss Laura right on the lips and you thank her for me for marrying you." She said, "Now, look, I'm going to pee, and I love you." You see, I faced my biggest fear of knowing that God's the only one in control, and that when I show up and do with him- Yeah … and allow him to maintain control- Yeah

John:

he's gonna produce through me exactly what needs to be done to help someone or a group of people know that they're loved and valued- Wow … for who they are.

Kayley:

He's always on a mission to do that.

John:

Yeah.

Kayley:

Wow. That's a powerful story. Wow. And w- I guess a way… Uh, it's closure, too, in a way for you, too.

John:

It, it has been. It, it has really been,'cause now I, I recognize, wait a minute, are you doing for God by using the resources he's giving you?

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

John:

Are you doing with God by just showing up and being approachable-

Kayley:

Mm-hmm… John: teachable, and Wow. Wow, that's really good.

John:

Yeah. Thank you.

Kayley:

Well, folks, why don't you tell, why don't you tell everybody where they can find you if they wanna connect with you?

John:

Yeah. There's, there's a couple of places. If you want to see what we do with the foundation, it's youareagift.foundation. That's Y-O-U-A-R-E-A gift.foundation. If you wanna check out my, my work that I do with corporations and faith-based agencies, go to ileadme.us, ileadme.us.

Kayley:

Wow.

John:

And what we're helping CEOs and executives do, a lot of times they're solving problems- Mm-hmm that their leaders should own. We're helping- Mm … their leaders learn how to lead themselves and- That's good … and step up and learn to be with each other and their people- Yeah … instead of being at each other.

Kayley:

Yep. That's good. That's good. Well, folks, we hope that you got something good out of, out of this conversation today, and may you go in peace. May God bless you and keep you. Yes. Make His face shine upon you. Mm. And we love you. That's why we're here talking about these things, and hopefully imparting some good wisdom to you from the Lord above, who is good and so willing to show you and me new things every day. So we love you. Thanks for tuning in to Bible Bish.