Bible Bish

How Do I Know God's Will For My Life? | Guest: Pastor Rick Sowell

• Kayley Bishop • Season 1 • Episode 12

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“God wants your consent. And then He wants your cooperation.”

In this episode of Bible Bish, I sit down with a spiritual father of mine, Pastor Rick Sowell of Choctaw Road Baptist Church, to wrestle with one of the most asked (and misunderstood) questions in faith:
How do I know God’s will for my life?

Together, we unpack what it really means to walk in your destiny with clarity- not just with a “yes,” but with surrender and action.

We talk about:

  • Why peace is a major indicator of God’s will
  • How to navigate the moments when God feels silent
  • What happens when you say yes to God… but still try to stay in control
  • How fear and limiting beliefs keep us stuck
  • The spiritual tension between suffering and sovereignty

We also dive deep into the lie that says “you’ve missed it,” and the truth about how God brings beauty even from detours.

Plus: a Holy-Spirit-filled sidebar on relationships, intimacy, calling, and what happens when God’s voice gets drowned out by your own timeline.

🎧 For anyone who’s felt confused, paralyzed, or afraid of choosing wrong- this one’s a must-listen.

Come for the questions. Stay for the clarity.

Thanks for tuning in to Bible Bish!

Come for the tea, stay for the truth -you just might leave changed. 🕊️

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💌 Got a testimony or question? Email me at kayley@biblebish.com

In the name of love, this is your Bible Bish reporting for duty. ♡

Rick:

I'd go home and lay in my bed and over and over again, this thought would go through my mind. You're wasting your life. You're wasting your life. Wow.

Kayley:

When you don't have peace, everything aches

Rick:

God's done way more with my life than I ever dreamed he could.. It took two things. Consent. Okay, God, I want what you want. Mm,, Cooperation. I'm willing to do what my consent leans toward. Without those two things, we're not gonna get there.

Kayley:

Hello. Hello. Welcome to Bible Bish. My name is Kayley Bishop. I'm the host of Bible Bish, and today we're gonna talk about discerning God's will because if you're like me, you've struggled to figure out what that is for your life. And I have brought one of my favorite people, actually ever, his name is Rick, and he is a pastor in Choctaw, Oklahoma. Mm-hmm. And he's kind of like. I don't know if I've told you this before, but you're like a spiritual father to me. Have I told you that?

Rick:

Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Kayley:

Yeah. Well, I mean, he's a spiritual father to a lot of people. He's got a lot of youngins that probably claim him, and I just am so blessed to, to have parental figures all over the country that I get to call on and that will pray for me. And so I was so happy that he was coming to Nashville and I said, you're gonna get on the podcast. Are you ready?

Rick:

I'm ready. You're ready? Let's do it.

Kayley:

So, um, I have a lot of questions here about discerning God's will that I actually want some answers for myself. Okay. And I also thought maybe we could, like, jointly discuss some of these things and really help people out. But before we dive into all the questions, I want you to talk about the most pivotal time where you were discerning God's will.

Rick:

Okay. So, uh, I did not start out in the ministry. Um, I was raised in Tennessee, Clarksville, Tennessee as a matter of fact, and I went to school there and kind of played my way through high school at, uh, my, some had some of my friends who were interested in technology and I kind of followed their interest and I've always been pretty good at math and understanding concepts and ended up kind of leaning toward electronic engineering. Uh, went to what is now Nashville State Community College. It used to be Nashville State Technical Institute, and figured out once I got there that hey, one day people are gonna pay me for how well I do in school. And I buckled down and I did really well. And, uh, when it came time for companies to come in and interview, I had some great opportunities. Uh, Daytona Beach, uh, general Electric was doing space shuttle simulators, and they came and talked to me and at and t uh, bell Labs came and talked to me. And, uh, but the company that, that very rarely, uh. Made hires. It was just a very unique thing, was Sandia Laboratories and Albuquerque, New Mexico. And, uh, they did, uh, work, they were a lease agent for the Department of Defense, department of Energy, and they did nuclear weapon, uh, research and production. And, uh, I was hired by them and it was a, it was a great job between the time I was hired in the time that I actually left school and, and, uh, went to Albuquerque. I was having a quiet time and, and at that time I was having a quiet time in the morning and the evening, and the thought just randomly went through my mind. Why? Why are you working so hard at this? God just spoke to my spirit and said, because you're going to the ministry. And I, at that moment, I closed my Bible and said, not gonna happen. Uh, you should have told me sooner. So this is all human logic. Yeah. You let me prepare for a career you didn't want me to be in. And you knew this in advance and you didn't inform me.'cause wow. I still wanted to be God. Wow. Right. And you, yes, you should have informed me and got my consent because we could have done this differently together.

Kayley:

Differently, right.

Rick:

And so I'm not gonna do it. Wow. Wow. And so I loaded up and moved many, many miles to Albuquerque, New Mexico. I went through a big culture shock from uh, you know, I gotta understand, this is 1979. I graduated high school in 1981. I moved into Albuquerque. So huge culture shock. For me, uh, it is like I went forward in time about 40 years and got out and, and was working with people that I felt like were way smarter than me. Um, the, you know, my immediate supervisor, dual citizenships, a doctorate from Cambridge, and, you know, I, I was her flunky. I did what she wanted to do, but they treated me well. They paid me well. It was the job of a lifetime, except it wasn't the job God wanted me doing. Mm. And so I have learned, and I, uh, this is one of the important things I wrote about it this morning in my journal. Uh, we teach a young adult bible study, and this came up in the Bible study last Friday night, uh, that when God begins to work in her life, there are two things he wants. He wants consent. And he wants cooperation. And if he gets consent, no cooperation, it won't work. And if he gets, you can't have cooperation without consent. Yeah, of course. And he had neither from me, he had not consent. I'm not gonna do this, nor cooperation. And so what he did is he took me somewhere where he could get it and, and it was painful. Um, we saw a family about two weeks ago that had been influential in my life that actually lived in Albuquerque, and they came to visit and they asked me what I missed and I told 'em, I said that you guys probably don't understand this. That was a very painful time for me. Um, everything in my life was turned upside down. A lot of discomfort, but it was the only way God could ever get me to listen to him saying, you really need to do what I want you to do. So after two years I resigned that job, which is very, very rare. Super rare. Um,

Kayley:

because it was a government job, wasn't it?

Rick:

It's a government job that they tell you when we hire you, you don't leave. Because I had clearance to secret, top secret classified information. And they invest a lot in you to get that clearance. And they want you to stay forever. Yeah, of course. And they treat you and

Kayley:

they incentivize it too. I'm sure. Yes.

Rick:

They, they treat you in such a way to get you to stay forever. Um. And when I went in, it is crazy how God works and sat down to my supervisor and, and to resign a guy named Frank Gerstel and he said, if you had come in this office and said anything other than God, he said, I studied for the Catholic priesthood. Hmm. And he said, that was my prior life. And he said, if you'd have come in here and said anything, but you know God, I would tell you no. He said, but you can't argue with God. No. And, and they. Graciously, um, didn't make it difficult on me. Let me go and I started school again and, uh, ended up pastoring in Oklahoma. I left. Um. I left Tennessee in 1983. Went to Fort Worth, uh, I'm sorry. I came back to Tennessee in 83. Left, uh, Tennessee in 86. From 86 to 90, I was in Fort Worth, getting my masters. And from 90 until today, I've been in the state of Oklahoma. Never dreamed I'd be there, but God has used me in three churches and the church I'm in now, uh, we started about 250. And last, uh, couple of weeks we've been at 2,600. Just slightly over 2,600. So God's done way more with my life than I ever dreamed he could. Mm. Ever dreamed he could, but it did. It took two things. Mm. Consent. Okay, God, I want what you want. Mm, cooperation. I'm willing to do what my consent leans toward. In other words, I'll do the prep. I'll go to school, I'll bust my tail to cooperate with your purpose and your will for my life. Without those two things, we're not gonna get there.

Kayley:

I've got a couple questions already.'cause you said it was like the hardest time of your life. Mm-hmm. Being in Albuquerque and I wanna know why exactly that was

Rick:

Okay.

Kayley:

Yeah. Answer that first 'cause then I'll get to it. So God removed me

Rick:

from all relationships. I knew no one.

Kayley:

Okay.

Rick:

So I had no, uh, human support group. Now I developed friendships there. I don't want to, it wasn't two years of isolation. Yeah. I developed, but I went into an environment where I had no support group. I had no television. Right. So every night and I prayed, I would lay in bed and pray, God, if you'll let me go to sleep, I'll do anything you wanna do. It got that bad.

Kayley:

Wow.

Rick:

Just let me have one night of sleep because I'd go home and lay in my bed and over and over again, this thought would go through my mind. You're wasting your life. You're wasting your life. Wow. You're wasting your life. Okay, so

Kayley:

it was just. More than anything, it was the unrest. Like you had no peace, no peace. When you don't have peace, it does rattle your cage.

Rick:

And I would tell you, 'cause we're talking God's will, that one of the major indicators of about three is the peace of God. Yeah,

Kayley:

of course. Yeah. That's good. Okay. And so the other question I had, well I gotta back it up 'cause what were you saying before I asked that last question?

Rick:

Uh, which I remember about, God's done more in, in life than I ever dreamed he would. Consent and cooperation.

Kayley:

Yes. Consent and cooperation. Um, now I think the cooperation part is a really interesting part because I, I can look back on my own life and see all the areas in which I've consented, but I can also see all the areas that I had limiting beliefs that blunted or stunted my cooperation. Mm-hmm. Because I believed. It wasn't possible. I'm like, yes, God, I want what you want for my life. I'm so ready. Like I am a yes across the board. And then you've got the devil in your ear telling you you're worthless and you can't, and you're just afraid to begin. Sure. And that's just been so much of my life.

Rick:

I think fear's a big, big hold back for a lot of people. Yeah. Matter of fact, I had a conversation with a guy I love a lot recently. And I asked him, uh, he was sharing with me, he procrastinated. And, and I had been reading and, and in the reading had learned that procrastination and fear of failure are tied together, is that we put off because we're afraid it's just not gonna work. And I looked at him, I said, Hey, brother, are you afraid of failure? He said, I've been afraid of failure my whole life. Hmm. And so that keeps me from saying, okay, here's an open, God says, here's an open door. I'm too afraid. I'm too afraid,

Kayley:

man. I know that too. Well, the Lord has said to me a few times, he's like, why do you put more faith in your ability to fail than my ability to redeem?

Rick:

That's great.

Kayley:

And it has knocked me sideways. But it was one thing that like it, it hit my spirit so acutely, but it still didn't register in my soul, like in my heart. And I was battling this concept of like, yes, I know that to be true. Like I'm putting more faith in my ability to fail, but when is there gonna be a turnover when I don't do that anymore?

Rick:

Right.

Kayley:

And it's been. A long process and I still think I've, I'm flushing out the remnants. Yeah. And it just, and that's just the grace of God. Like he'll give me a concept or a lesson and then he will just patiently watch me work it out. And he's so gracious.

Rick:

Well, if you, if you take that consent and cooperation concept and you look at Jesus calling the disciples and he, he walks up to them and, and we are big on the phrase, follow me.

Kayley:

Not

Rick:

give your heart to Jesus. Not do you believe in Jesus? Follow me. Get up every day. Follow me. Yes. So he walks up to these guys, he says, follow me. That's consent. Sure. I'm gonna follow you. Cooperation happened in three, the next three and a half years, which was, let me argue with you about what you want to do. Let me tell you you're wrong, Jesus, in the decision you're making. Mm. Let's call fire down on these people and destroy them.

Kayley:

Yeah. And

Rick:

so this. The cooperation came slower for them than the consent. Mm. Some people consent's harder for, uh, but, but it's both a growth aspect.

Kayley:

Interesting. Do you feel like you can cooperate without fully giving your consent?

Rick:

Hmm. Okay, so let's take the person who fakes their way through. Uh, they've got a duplicitous life, right? Yeah. They're not really lining up with God on this side, but they're looking like they do. Yeah. They're cooperating, but they're not consenting.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Eventually that shows up somewhere. But I think the bigger, I think more people, I think that's a very, you know, when you're cooperating and not consenting,

Kayley:

I think you can cooperate without consent to man. There you go. But to God it's different. Because when I think about being bulldoged by somebody, or being manipulated or whatever, abused, whatever you consent out of fear. Or no, sorry. You, you cooperate out of fear, but you don't, but you don't consent. Yeah. Your soul's like, I don't wanna do this, but I'm doing this anyway,

Rick:

so, and they, possibly another word for consent, because what you said just triggered that for me is submission.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

Is that, uh, it's possible to be forced to obey. For instance, God could have made me so miserable that I resigned my job, but my heart never surrendered to him, that I never submitted to him. Fortunately by the time he got through with me. Uh, I would've consented to about anything you wanted.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Uh, to be able, and then, then it became cooperation. Will you go in? Go to school. Well, I'm, I didn't love school, but I did what God wanted me to, to cooperate, to get me where he wanted me to.

Kayley:

Well, 'cause you know, we're talking about free will at that point. Yes. And he gives you free will and his sovereignty. But the idea of like not giving you peace. Oof. When you don't have peace, everything aches and you like, I've been in those places where my soul was yes. You know?'cause we're mind, we're we're soul, body and spirit. And I've had situations where like my soul is like, yes, I want this. Yes, this is good for me. Yes, this is the best thing I've experienced. And my spirit was like, that ain't it. You're right. And you just feel completely torn. And I remember one time somebody said this to me.'cause I was like, how do you know if it's, if I'm, if I should go through and do this opportunity? And someone said, if you have peace, if you have desire, and if you have an open door. Okay. And I'm like, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like it's an easy, you know, addition problem of like peace.

Rick:

So Henry Blackaby predates you. Uh, he, he did the um experiencing God. Okay. He did experiencing God. He, he had three criteria. He had the word of God.

Kayley:

Okay.

Rick:

The truth.

Kayley:

Yes. It's

Rick:

gotta line up with the truth. Yeah. Then he had the peace of God. Yep. Then he had the counsel of Godly people. That's he, he said those things line up. That's good. And when those things line up, that you can proceed forward.

Kayley:

And I feel like that's for anything. It's, I mean, I really need that for relationships. Like when my next, when my future husband comes around. He better come soon. I'm just gonna say like, I've got a whole list of people of godly counsel that I need Yes from.

Rick:

Right. I'm not, that's really smart. I'm

Kayley:

not, I'm not doing it alone anymore. Like I know Kayley and Kayley in the past has operated from wounds of like, oh, I want this person. And it was entirely based on a deficiency in my life and not based on like God's alignment. That's really

Rick:

good.

Kayley:

And, and I've had to. You, you learn and you grow and you mature. Because I've been through failed relationships, and I don't wanna go through more.

Rick:

Well, let's, let's go back a couple of hundred years. Who made that decision for you 200 years ago? Who chose your husband 200 years ago? You didn't?

Kayley:

No.

Rick:

Who, who chose your husband 200 years ago?

Kayley:

Probably the devil.

Rick:

No, no, no, no. Literally 200 years ago. Go back. Go back. 500 years. And who chose your husband? Yeah. You had no voice in it, your parents. Your father and your mother made the choice of who you'd lived the rest of your life with and you had no voice in it. Oh,

Kayley:

sorry. I get it now.

Rick:

And, and they are looking and they're going, what is best for our little girl?

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

And because, and, and I know you wanna talk some relationship stuff and we can Well, I don't

Kayley:

know if I want to. I mean Okay. Keep going. Keep going though.

Rick:

Well, we're, we're the first couple of generations who've had the privilege of romance.

Kayley:

I know that is a privilege. It is a privilege, and I do think about that. I'm like, we're so based on our chemistry. Yes. Like how we feel and gosh, feelings are fleeting.

Rick:

Chemistry fades, character lasts

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

Right? Yes. Chemistry is real. Yeah. There are a lot of things that happen in our body. Colors get brighter. Music sounds better when we fall in love. There's all kinds of stuff that really does happen, but also it's really true that it fades.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

And character doesn't. Character lasts. And so parents choose character people. You and I choose chemistry. Yeah. Well, and then we wonder why things don't last. So when, when you had Godly parents looking at you and going, this, there's a man of character who will love and take care of my daughter. Right. They didn't go, does he look good? They didn't ask, is he wealthy? They said he's a man of character. Mm-hmm. If they were good parents, they make that decision. And you learn because both of you're seeking God. Love is then possible. Mm-hmm. And we've turned love into. I didn't feel the flutter.

Kayley:

Yeah. And you know, like looking back on my last relationship, and I don't even mind talking about it little bit, by the way, before

Rick:

we go on, my wife's over here. I did feel the flutter. I did, I did, I did feel the flutter. Stephanie's

Kayley:

in the studio. Hello Stephanie. Um, but my last relationship, we had a ton of chemistry. It was like we, we really fit in a lot of ways. There were some issues, obviously we're not together anymore. But one thing that really hit home for me was, I can't remember who said this to me, but they said to me, Kayley, he's good for your soul, not good for your spirit. And it was so true. It's like, man, I am not being called higher. I'm not being built up like I'm actually in regression because this relationship is all about earthly, like fleshly comfort. And I, I'm never gonna grow from that. I, and I'm not gonna thrive from that. And I need someone that's gonna be that, you know, iron sharpens iron kind of thing. And, and

Rick:

see, I would tell you what I've told, uh, in our world, a bunch of young women. Right, is that there are a lot of young women who've taken God really seriously and there's a deficit of young men who have,

Kayley:

yeah. And

Rick:

I do believe God is raising some young men up. We work with some of them. And I'm seeing some incredible, a, a decade behind where you are. There's some incredible guys coming up.

Kayley:

Yes. Yeah. I believe that. But for a

Rick:

whole bunch of, of women finding a leader Yeah. Which is what you're talking about. Yeah. Who can lead me? Yeah. Who can take me somewhere is very difficult, especially for, uh, an independent, strong-willed woman who's pursuing God. And you find somebody and the chemistry lines up and the emotions line up and the feels are all there. Yeah. And then it comes to the God side and it's like, you're way behind me.

Kayley:

Yeah. And I think I just really wanna have those like spirit filled conversations with my partner and just be like, uh, let's talk about Holy Spirit.'cause like it is the best thing in the world. And I, me and uh, I've got a handful of single girlfriends that are so beautiful and so ready for husband, like they're amazing women. And we both, we all had this consensus of like, we'd rather be single than settle. I'd rather live the life of Paul and do ministry full time and just let the Lord be my husband than settle on anyone that's gonna,

Rick:

you've been through this. Yeah. But talk to anybody whose relationship ended and they will tell you there is something worse than singleness.

Kayley:

Yes. And I, yep. And I know what it, I mean, certain bad alignments can feel like death sentences because there is a death to a dream. There's a death to a God call because the enemy will bring in counterfeits for you to get distracted and align yourself with. And it's all to get you off course because God wants to give you a rich, abundant life. The enemy wants to kill, steal, and destroy. And he is gonna do that. It's a deceiver. Yeah, he's a deceiver.

Rick:

So you gotta get your consent.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

And then your cooperation looks, it's, it's a, um. It's deception. It looks like the real thing.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

And, and, and it doesn't take because we're human and we want something so badly.

Kayley:

Yeah, we do.

Rick:

Everybody wants to be loved on the human side. Yes.

Kayley:

I mean, man is not good for man to be alone. Right. Like, and God said that to Adam while he was in the garden with him. And so that's something powerful. So

Rick:

we're already prone, we're already pro to falling on the wrong side of that. Yes. Even the man, you, you, the man chose the woman above God.

Kayley:

Mmm. Ooh,

Rick:

Ooh. It's ugly picture.

Kayley:

Yikes. I don't want that, that I got God on this

Rick:

hand. And I got the woman holding the fruit out on this hand, which one I choose. She looks really good.

Kayley:

Yeah. And I don't wanna be anyone's, God, I don't. That's too much to live up to. I'm just gonna disappoint, you know. And that comes back, I've said this I think on the podcast before, but talking about how women have this power to influence. Mm-hmm. And we can influence to sanctify or influence to seduce.

Rick:

Oh yes.

Kayley:

And I see that play out a lot in my life. And I think about that in myself.'cause I feel like I have like great relationships with, you know, different guys and everything. And I can relate to men really well. I, I think, and my friends tell me this too, but it's one of those things where I have to really be careful so that I'm not

Rick:

getting an attachment.

Kayley:

Yeah. From them, um, and that I'm influencing to sanctify and build them towards Jesus, not build them towards me.

Rick:

Okay. So we, we teach our people that there are three areas God wants you to be intimate in, in a marriage. He wants you to have physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy. Mm-hmm. And, and the world looks at it and goes, oh, the greatest intimacy ever is physical intimacy, sexual intimacy. Uh, and yet when you talk to people. If you ever find someone who says, we have a great physical relationship and we are best friends, everybody goes, oh my gosh.

Kayley:

Yeah. That's,

Rick:

yeah. That's, that's, that's great. What if, what if you had a great friendship, a great physical relationship, but the cream, the thing that held everything together was the spiritual,

Kayley:

ugh.

Rick:

So here's the danger, and I, I have guys in my life who won't do Bible study with a female single guys, because that is the highest level of intimacy. Yeah. And they,

Kayley:

yeah.

Rick:

Everything. You start feeling these things and they're

Kayley:

not in covenant.

Rick:

Yes. And it

Kayley:

can get confusing.

Rick:

Yes, yes.

Kayley:

And so it's like, yeah, I, I've, I've heard people say like, don't pray with your partner unless you're married.

Rick:

Which, because it's a level of intimacy. It's a level of intimacy. I'm not sure I go that far because I think there is, there is a time and a place for spiritual development. In a growing relationship, I would probably lean more on the, why are we waiting so long to get married once we discover this? Yeah, that's right. Why are we putting ourself through the torture of

Kayley:

Yeah, if I know I'm wanna marry this man. Yes. And the marriage is like five months out. Like, I'll be praying with this dude. You know what I mean? But yeah, it's that. That's such a good point. And I think that's why like women's small groups, men's small groups are so powerful. Um, and not being distracted by the opposite sex'cause that's so easy. It's so easy to be, as soon as you like, there's a, there's music or ministries and there's a female bible study and a men's bible study. And every so often we come together to do the, uh, we do this like burgers and baptisms and it's co-ed. And of course, in everyone's mind, everyone's looking around. Sure. It's like, well, who's here? Oh, you're a Christian. Maybe you are. I don't know how deep your faith is. I'm not in the study with you. I don't know the fruit,

Rick:

but you look good. But we're looking. Yes,

Kayley:

we're looking. So, okay. Well this is all really good. And of course we could go down the rabbit hole of relationships more, but frankly I don't want to do that because I don't want to. I'd rather talk about some of these identity calling questions that I have. Okay. Because I just think they're really good and, and there's a lot of people I know that are gonna be listening to this that need. They just need breakthrough. Okay. And I think we all come to moments where we need the next breakthrough. So the first question I have down is how do I know if I'm walking in God's will or just chasing my own dream?

Rick:

You know, the scripture says, um, that if we will seek God, he'll give us the desires of our heart. And, and there's two ways to understand that.

Kayley:

Yep.

Rick:

One is, God's gonna gimme everything I want. That is a misunderstanding of scripture.

Kayley:

Yes. Yes.

Rick:

That when we begin to seek God. Then God will change the desires of our heart to line up with him. This is what facts the, the New Testament means. When it says, pray in the name of Jesus, it doesn't mean to end your prayer in Jesus' name. Mm. I pray this. It means to pray from the perspective and the place of Jesus. Mm. So when we, when we get to that spot in our personal spiritual life, then the distance between what I want and what God wants, they get really close. Mm. You know, the, uh, the idea is when they. Are the same.

Kayley:

Yes. Uh,

Rick:

but that problem, that, that distance between what I want and what God wants and the human, the ability of, of a human to convince themself or blame God. Convince himself that God has given them something that does not line up with his will is incredibly huge. Uh, we often say, well, God told me to do this, and it, and they're just like, all you gotta do is open your Bible. God did not tell you to do that. Oh,

Kayley:

yeah, totally.

Rick:

Oh, or uh, like

Kayley:

whose voice are you listening to then? Yes. Ah. But,

Rick:

but we see what we wanna see.

Kayley:

Yeah, totally. What you

Rick:

have, uh. Have rose colored glasses on today, kind of, and, and they orange,

Kayley:

a little orange.

Rick:

People have a, you know, a case of glasses that they pull out which ones they want to see what they want. Yeah, it's so true. And so the more we line our personal spiritual growth up. With God. I really, my goal in life is to know you. The less distance there is between what I want and what you want.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Um,

Kayley:

that's why I think it's good. Like at one point my prayer life changed. I wasn't just praying what Kayley wanted to pray. I started really, um, asking Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, is there something you want me to pray? Can you give me a word on this or being curious about it? Like, Holy Spirit, am I wearing rose colored glasses? Mm-hmm. Is there something about this circumstance that I'm not understanding that you can illuminate for me?

Rick:

Eyes to see, ears to hear. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Kayley:

And I think you just, because his job is to bring to remembrance, his job is to summon and, and partnering with Holy Spirit, like getting the mind of God in the prayer? He'll gimme so many prayers to pray, and I'll be like, wow, I didn't know I needed to pray that. And there's power in them when I'm partnering the Holy Spirit,

Rick:

when we work with our young adult group, uh, this bible study that meets in our house there, a lot of our young women, and they're smart young women, they, they want one thing. Mm, I wanna get married and have babies.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

It's no longer is it the, I wanna make a million dollars. I wanna own my own business, I wanna get married, I wanna have babies. My life goal. And sometimes they get really excited about, let me find somebody, and Steph will time after time and tell them. You. You develop your relationship with God.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

You develop your relationship with God. Stop. Stop looking around. Start looking in. Yeah, develop that. God will bring it to you when you're ready.

Kayley:

And it's so hard 'cause we have all these limiting beliefs like, well if I don't meet him by 25, then I won't be able to get married by 28 and then won't be able to kid by 30. Right? Like we have these timelines and it just means that we're in the driver's seat and God isn't right. And we're not fully submitted. We haven't submitted our dreams, our goals, because God has a beautiful plan for our lives. And it's better than we could ever think or imagine if we would just trust him a little bit. And man, I have like tried to yank the wheel from him so many times. I mean, I'm, I'm now 35 years old. My life is not what I ever planned it was gonna be or what I thought it was gonna be, but I have more joy than I've ever had. I have more peace, I have more, um,

Rick:

opportunity.

Kayley:

Opportunity. But like I, my identity, um, is coming full clear to me. I'm like, why does it taking me 35 years to figure out who I am? And it's because, I mean, that's a whole nother story, but learning like, what does God say about me and really getting to the truth of it and leaving behind all the fluff, all the, everything that I once held dear. And one thing I've seen about God is that a lot of times he'll bring something to me when it's no longer my greatest desire, and I think it's because he doesn't want competition.

Rick:

That's it. He doesn't want, it's an idol.

Kayley:

Yes, it's an idol. He doesn't want your heart worshiping anything else from him but him.

Rick:

Well, what's your Isaac?

Kayley:

Yeah, what's your Isaac? He'll probably ask you to sacrifice it and not, not to even follow through with the sacrifice. He wants your heart. He wants your willingness.

Rick:

I wanna know you love me.

Kayley:

I wanna know you love me. And how is He gonna know that unless there's that thing to contend with. It's like the tree. I was like, God, why would you put the tree in the garden? The tree of good and evil? He's like, well, 'cause I needed something to tell me that you loved me.

Rick:

Love has to have a choice.

Kayley:

Love has a choice. Are you gonna obey me or not? If you love me, you'll obey me. It's good. Dang da. Dang. Okay, we got another one. What if I feel like I missed God's will, can I still get back on track?

Rick:

Sure, sure.'cause we already have missed his will. Yeah, right. Oh my gosh. A gazillion times.

Kayley:

A gazillion times.

Rick:

Yeah. You know. Um. We're in the middle of a parenting series at our church, and, and I closed out the message Sunday by saying I made a lot of mistakes. Mm. I looked at my life as a parent and I thought I was too young and too immature to have kids when I had 'em. Mm. And so I made a lot of mistakes and I've had to sit down with my kids and say, Hey, I'm sorry.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

I'm sorry for, for the dad. I was or wasn't, but I can't. Undo any of that. Mm-hmm. What I can do is live differently now. It's the same way with God's will. I can't go back and change a moral mistake. I can't go back and change a career mistake. I can't go back and change any of these things. All I can do right now is live differently right now.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Is that I'm gonna do my best to line up with where you want me to be right now and pursue that. That that's the definition. People ask this question, how do I know I'm a Christian? Well, because you walked an aisle when you were six years old and somebody had you sign a paper and they baptized you and that's how you know No. You know, be, you know, because of where your life is today. Yeah. Are you walking with him today?

Kayley:

You have a relationship with him

Rick:

today?

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Yeah. And there, you know,

Kayley:

yeah.

Rick:

Anyway, sorry, I kind of diverted off

Kayley:

there. No, but it's so true, and I think it also comes back to listening. Like I wasn't a good listener. Because I wasn't submitted to God. I was a listener to what I wanted. And so, yeah. Do I think if I was fully submitted to God, would I have married the man I married? No, I think I would've probably not done that.

Rick:

Right.

Kayley:

Um. But at the same time, like you, when you learn better, you do better. And now I choose to put everything before God to get his say on the matter before I make big decisions.'cause I don't wanna do it alone. And the days that I haven't opened my ears to listen to what he says, those are my worst days.'cause I'm just dealing with my own nest, nasty mind and thoughts and like, I'm like, no, like listening I think is everything. And then what do you do? Is there consent? Is their Cooper cooperation. Cooperation is their collaboration. I love collaborating with God. Oh, that's

Rick:

be the third C. Yeah.

Kayley:

You got that for free.

Rick:

Alright, thank you. I'll quote you.

Kayley:

Thank you. Um, and you know, like the idea of like getting back on like, like missing God's will, I don't know if you've ever struggled with this, but I think it comes back to the failure mindset of like, oh God, I, I messed up like. Are you gonna condemn me? Are you gonna punish me because I didn't hear you correctly or follow through when I did hear something like, am I gonna be punished? I've, I've dealt with that a lot and it's totally not God's voice. When I feel punished, it's totally the enemy. And I, and I don't know if you would agree with this or not, but this is what I really believe about God's voice. His voice always builds you. It never buries you. I

Rick:

would agree with that

Kayley:

because I, I've struggled with that'cause I think sometimes. We con, we confuse conviction and guilt.

Rick:

Oh, shame. Shame. Take it a step further. Shame.

Kayley:

Yes, emotions have frequencies and shame actually is the lowest reverberating frequency. Wow. And the highest is actually authenticity.

Rick:

Wow.

Kayley:

Which is really fascinating to me. It

Rick:

is fascinating

Kayley:

and it just shows you how ugly shame can be and it really takes you to the lowest places

Rick:

you take that frequency thing out. Do they've discovered, you know, certain frequencies heal. Oh, totally. And certain frequencies hurt.

Kayley:

Yeah. Yep. Even music frequencies. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think it was in the forties that they mandated that all music frequencies were gonna be, uh, in 440. And so anytime you listen to music, it's all tuned to the frequency of 440. But that was actually to get like a guttural anger response.

Rick:

Do you know who developed that? 440 frequency.

Kayley:

Well, it didn't have to do with the war.

Rick:

Germans. Yeah, the German. The Germans did it. Yes. Yeah.

Kayley:

And they weren’t consulting the music aficionados of the day..

Rick:

No, it was with purpose. It was

Kayley:

with purpose to get people riled up to go to war. And so when you, when you find yourself listening to music and it makes you like angsty, well there's a reason behind that, right? But then there's the heart frequency, and I think it is it 430?

Rick:

You got me

Kayley:

4 38. Y'all need to go look that up.'cause I can't remember. But it makes me wanna actually create music in the heart frequency, which I think is more in tune with heaven. And it makes you feel different. It really does. Yeah. That was a side note. Everybody got that for free? Okay, here's a good one. What if I'm gifted in multiple areas? Mm-hmm. How do I know which one to pursue?

Rick:

So I believe that one of the things the church does is provide people a safe place to fail. Mm. Um, and, and our world doesn't do that very well.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Um, you know, I've got a young man in our church that is, uh. 18 years old that will preach his first sermon in December. You do? Yes. Oh. We, every one of our staff members, all of our, our guys, they all get a chance to preach, but here's what we do with them. You submit in writing what you're gonna do.

Kayley:

Okay.

Rick:

Uh, you rewrite it and rewrite it. Yeah. And you get it down to a package and then you preach it to our staff.

Kayley:

Yeah. And you

Rick:

might have to preach it a couple of times, but by the time you get in front of our people, you're guaranteed a good measure of success. Mm. Because you have refined it. Now, the process has revealed to some of our guys, I can do this once. Good. I can't do it every week. Took me six months to get a message. I, I can do a message in six months, but I can't do one every two days or every three days.

Kayley:

Sure.

Rick:

So you, you start to refine your skills and I believe God confirms to us which of our talents, if we have multiple talents, which one we're supposed to use by what happens when we use it.

Kayley:

Okay. Can you keep going?

Rick:

So, so if you sang and everybody boo. That's a good indicator, right, right. That I

Kayley:

suck and I should never seen it or,

Rick:

or no one showed up.

Kayley:

Oh, well that that's happened though.

Rick:

Yeah. Yeah. If you're seeing it, if you're singing it on

Broadway at at 9:

30 in the morning, nobody's there. Oh, goodness. But, but if you're teaching a Bible study and you start with 10 and next week there's 15, and the next week there's 20, and then you can't meet in your house anymore, there's a good likelihood that God is saying, now you found what you wanted. What I want you to do.

Kayley:

Interesting. But would you say that there's a difference between having a gift operating in your gift and then having an anointing?

Rick:

Oh, yes.

Kayley:

How would you define that?

Rick:

Yeah. Probably ones would be closer to talent and one would be closer to giftedness. Okay. Like spiritually giftedness. Well, for instance, have you always been able to sing?

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

Even before you knew God?

Kayley:

Yeah, yeah,

Rick:

yeah. I've

Kayley:

stung my whole life. Yeah. Yeah. But then there's

Rick:

a moment. There's a moment when you'll sing and God shows up.

Kayley:

Oh my goodness. Yes.

Rick:

And and there's there's your difference. Yeah. Even people who don't know God have talent. Some greatly talented people, but when we combine talent with God's spirit, something different happens.

Kayley:

I mean, there are some incredible singers in this town and beyond that don't move me at all. There's just nothing there for me,

Rick:

or have an anointing not from God. From, from Satan. Oh yeah. Because he can do the same thing and make people feel and empower things and Yeah. And

Kayley:

you know, there's something there. Yeah. That's good. Or I've heard people that don't have like the best voice in the world, but they've got anointing. And I'm weeping.

Rick:

I've, I've shared this story. Um, I went to a church service. Some kids had come back from camp and we went to celebrate it. And the guy who led the camp. Loved to play his guitar. He could not sing. He could not, it was horrible. It was horrible. But he led a worship service and I couldn't look up, I could not look up. Wow. It was such an incredible spiritual moment. And he, he, him screaming this song at the top of his lungs looking at heaven, and I looked at the floor. Oh.'cause it was such a. Worship moment. Yeah. And it was horrible, but it was wonderful. Yeah. If that makes sense. No,

Kayley:

it's so true. And that's why I, I really, I want people to look past their ears. If that makes sense. And like, uh, John Bevere, I love John Bevere. I started reading his book, Awe of God, and he talks about the presence of God. He said, you know, God is omnipresent, but there is a requirement of reverence in the room for his manifest presence to come down. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when you see people that are worshiping and maybe they don't have the most talent, but they had this. Genuine, authentic awe and reverence for God. Their worship isn't to bring themselves glory, but to glorify God. There is something tangible that happens to the atmosphere and yeah, you just can't help but like submit to it or worship or glorify God yourself.

Rick:

Yeah.

Kayley:

And it's, um, that's a, it's

Rick:

very much that moment for me.

Kayley:

Yeah. And it's so powerful seeing someone worship with just complete

Rick:

abandon.

Kayley:

Abandonment. Yes. It's so good. I, I feel like we're really, we're really hitting on some things. Well, good. Okay. This is a good one because I struggled with this one myself, and I'm so flipping glad that I'm out of this rut. But this question is, what if I feel like God is silent? Does that mean I'm off track?

Rick:

No. Look, um. We make this mistake when we read the Bible, we read the Bible like it happened over the course of a year. God did this, this, this, this. Every day, God's doing something every day. There were years where God was silent, matter of fact, um, and I can't remember, I did a count of the number of miracles and then we, we divided, we did the count of the miracles in the Old Testament and the count of all the miracles in the New Testament that were recorded. Then we divide it back by the time. Oh, that's good to find out how often. A miracle showed up. Yeah. And understanding every miracle God did is not in, is not, not listed of course, but of those that were listed.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

Uh, it came up to be one about, I think every 60 years. Wow. When we did the math on it, and I'm doing this from memory, so I may be off a little bit, but, uh, the question is, you still waiting on yours,

Kayley:

man. Right.

Rick:

Just go, just go love Jesus and live your life. And if the miracle shows up, it shows up.

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

But if you're living life for the miracle. You're probably gonna be disappointed.

Kayley:

Yes. But also miracles are gonna be different than hearing God's voice daily. Yeah.

Rick:

Oh yes. And,

Kayley:

and which is, that's a whole nother concept. But to your point, and I actually heard this recently and it, it blew my mind, but I was looking at the cannon of, of, of the Bible and how there's those 400 years silence of silence between the last prophet Malachi and the New Testament. Mm-hmm. And you think like, okay, well God was silent during that time, but he totally wasn't because he's never, he's never just quiet. And what I, what I saw historically. During this time, the Greeks came over, they had their empire, and when the Greeks took over, they were major empire. They spread Greek.

Rick:

Mm-hmm.

Kayley:

The language of Greek and it became the point

Rick:

The Koine Greek, the language of the people.

Kayley:

It became the "lingua franka". Yeah. Everyone, pretty much, it was the common, just like English is today a major glue language. So then they fall. The Roman Empire comes through and they build roads

Rick:

for the gospel.

Kayley:

For the gospel. And so now, now that the gospel is present in the New Testament, Jesus comes, they have the common language Greek, because the entire New Testament was originally written in Greek so that everyone could understand it. And they've got the roads to take it to all the people that need to hear it. And I'm just like, wow, Lord, you are so strategic.

Rick:

Separate, God being silent from God, being at work. God is always at work,

Kayley:

always at work,

Rick:

always at work. And, and there could be a lot of reasons that God is silent in our lives. Um, so, so thinking that you've been abandoned, for instance, in my marriage, there are times that Steph and I are silent with each other. Uh, does that mean she's not present? No. Does that mean I'm not enjoying her presence? Not unless we're mad. Yeah. Which is a whole nother silence. Yeah. But just. Si just pure silence without a relational impact can be enjoyable.

Kayley:

Oh yeah.'cause you just, you're living and breathing

Rick:

well. You're together. You're

Kayley:

together. Yeah. It's, yeah. I mean, I think about moments where I'm not even speaking with God, but I just feel next to him. Close,

Rick:

close and intimate,

Kayley:

and you just don't feel alone. There's, there, there's something so, uh, satiating about it.

Rick:

Uh, you typically what I hear when people tell me God is silent, the next thing we look at is, is the why. Mm-hmm. And more often than not, there is a why in our lives when someone complains to me, well, I'm just not hearing from God. Usually there's a why. Uh oh,

Kayley:

totally. Absolutely. There's

Rick:

a why, because if you're not, if you're, if, if you feel like you need to be hearing from him and you're not, it's usually on your side.

Kayley:

Yeah. I, I think I came into this revelation this year, but it was back in 2023. No, maybe 20, 20, 22, where I felt like God was so silent and in ways I know he was maturing me and his voice was just growing quieter so that I would grow and learn how to listen more clearly and, uh, patiently. But also I started to believe that God didn't wanna speak to me in the, in that process and that everything I'd ever heard of from him in the past was probably wrong, or I misheard. And that was totally again, the father of the lies coming in to distort my memory, distort my perception of God and I, it was me who blocked God's voice. Lemme pause

Rick:

you for just a second, okay? I would challenge you. Don't do it right now, but if you look at your life, you've lived that moment on this planet, that planted that seed that Satan used to get you to think that thought before it ever happened between you and God.

Kayley:

Wait, say that again?

Rick:

That you lived that moment between in some relationship in this life.

Kayley:

Yeah. Where

Rick:

something very similar happened to you that planted the seed that Satan could come and whisper to you remember when this happened and now God's done it to you too, and that becomes the root of that doubt.

Kayley:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Where it's all performance related. That's actually what I'm walking through right now, where I've, I've had this performance concept of performing for God. Like if I'm not performing, then I'm gonna be rejected

Rick:

You're earning love.

Kayley:

God God's gonna withhold. Yeah. And, and you know, it's funny, we talk about parents grooming. My parents love me so much. Like I know that I'm the apple of my dad's eye. My mom loves me, but did they groom me? 100%. Well, they didn't know. They didn't know they were grooming me. Mm-hmm. But anytime I did something, well, they praised me. Mm-hmm. And so it taught me that I'm gonna get praised when I do well,

Rick:

look at, look at your life system when you're a little kid. If you're a good boy, who's gonna come see you at Christmas. Yeah. Right. Totally. So, so what you're learning is good, good gets rewarded. Yes. Before you ever get a job, good work gets rewarded. Everything in this life works to teach you that if you don't perform, you're not rewarded. Yeah. Then God shows up and goes, there's nothing you can do to make me love you less. Nothing you can do to make me love you more. It's

Kayley:

so opposite. That is the craziest thing, like heaven is upside down. It is in the best. He's like, no, like I'm favoring you without you performing for me. And it was a, it's been a long road of discerning who was actually speaking to me, and I actually had to break off some agreements. I said, I, I break the agreement that I can't hear God speak to me, Satan Devil, you can go sit in the back because you don't have any dominion over here and over me anymore. Like my ears are clear, right. And ready and present to hear God speak to me and man the Lord. It is just the downloads I get from God are beautiful and they're subtle, and I do have to get quiet and I do have to stop busying my surroundings there. I have to remove the turbulence I was actually reading. Um. In streams in the desert. My favorite devotional, there's like a little excerpt and it talks about the dew on the grass. Mm-hmm. In order for dew to fall on the grass in the morning, there cannot be any turbulence in the air. No wind. You can't have wind, you can't have rain. It's gotta be still, and that's what God's voice is like getting still and letting the dew fall on the grass. That's, and hearing him, that's, I've always thought that analogy was so good.

Rick:

It is good.

Kayley:

Okay, moving on. Alright, this is good. ooh, this is really good. Is it biblical to ask God for signs or is that just immaturity or fear?

Rick:

It's gotta be biblical because men did.

Kayley:

They did.

Rick:

They did.

Kayley:

They sure did. Uh,

Rick:

now. Unfortunately for us, all the people who asked for signs and didn't get a confirmation, their stories aren't recorded because I'm sure that happened.

Kayley:

Yeah, that's, yeah, totally. So the

Rick:

only ones recorded are the ones who said, Hey, wet the Fleece, or Dry the fleece. Yes. And the fleece got dry.

Kayley:

Yep.

Rick:

Uh, you know, they, they got an answer again. Here's our struggle with scripture. We read a story in scripture and we immediately align it with our life and, and kinda say, I claim that it happened once, one time. Mm-hmm. In all of scripture, and yet we want it to be our story. Mm-hmm. And there it's really not likely that it's gonna be our story because it only happened. One time that this sign was confirmed. Um, so, so although is it okay to ask for it? Yes. Don't hang your hat in everything you have on it. Go through those other things. Does this align with God's word? Is the Council of Godly people saying this is gonna happen? And is there peace in my heart about this? Go back to the things that, um, that we can cooperate with.

Kayley:

Yeah. Yeah. I've, um, I've bulldogged God a little bit with some things. I'm like, Lord, especially I just keep saying, I don't wanna talk about relationships and I'm coming right back to this one. But I was like, Lord, I'm not gonna make this mistake again. I wanna be the next person I'm with is my husband like that's, it just has to be that way and I need you to tell me. so now that you're gonna tell me that I meet my husband, when I meet my husband, uh, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna show it? How are you gonna let me know I need a sign? Mm-hmm. I just bulldogging him and I'm like, what's my sign gonna be? Right? And he gave me something and I, you know, maybe I heard wrong. Maybe I didn't. Maybe it is true and in faith, I'm just gonna Walk that out,

Rick:

watching for it.

Kayley:

I'm just kind of watching for it. Mm-hmm. And I'm claiming it. and so, but I, I also think it's, it's kind of fun. I think the Lord more than anything just wants relationship with us. Uh, which is why Jesus came and, and even just having a conversation with him and holding his feet to the fire and saying, Lord, like I want this. Mm-hmm. And I need you to tell me, and I'm willing to hear you completely.

Rick:

Right.

Kayley:

I, I, I ask him for signs and I also tell people ask for signs, especially 'cause I think we're so feeble-minded and

Rick:

weak-minded. My, my only, and this would be for my own life, my own, you know, the heart of man is deceitfully wicked. Who can know it.

Kayley:

Yeah, it's true.

Rick:

I'll see my own signs. Um, you know, I, I joke with Steph. I've, I've wanted Corvette. I don't want one anymore, but for a period of time in my life I did. And, and one would drive by and I would go, Hey babe, there's a sign. Because that's what I wanted to see.

Kayley:

I know. Yes. People do get into that. Yeah, I'm sure I've been there.

Rick:

Is that I see again, I pull my glasses out to see what I wanna see. Yeah. Um, and look, all of the you, you can't, you can't, you cannot. And you cannot say, I will make. My decisions based only on a sign.

Kayley:

No, no, no, no, no,

Rick:

no. I will make my decisions. No. If I pray for a sign based on the truth of God's word. In other words, God says, I want you to fall in love with this man who doesn't know me. This isn't lining up. No. Although I got the sign. Okay. It's not lining up with everything else. No. So if the sign lines up with the truth of God's word, the Council of Godly people, and the peace of God. Then, you know, you can move ahead. But if the sign, if you get the sign,

Kayley:

yes,

Rick:

and you'll have anything else, be careful.

Kayley:

That's, that's really good. I'm glad you touched on that because even though I feel like I got a sign from the Lord or I know what sign to look for, if the other things aren't present, then it doesn't matter.

Rick:

That's true.

Kayley:

And so I'm glad you brought that up because I think you're right. People do get in their head of like, I want this, and you can manufacture it. If you wanna look for a Corvette, you are gonna see all of them on the road.

Rick:

Everywhere.

Kayley:

Everywhere. I mean, my ex's vehicles, anytime I see them, I'm like, are they there? Like I don't wanna run into them.

Rick:

Right?

Kayley:

Like, because you're just acutely aware of like your surroundings when you're starting to look for signs. Right? I'm really glad you said that. That's really good. Y'all are, listen, do you have a question that

Rick:

I want you to get to? I'm not sure if you will, but we'll see.

Kayley:

There's a question on here you want me to get to?

Rick:

Mm-hmm. It's about God's will. You'll get to it.

Kayley:

Oh, why don't you just tell me. It's the one

Rick:

about, uh, does God do hurtful things when Hurtful things? What? Which one is that? Oh,

Kayley:

Oh, can God's will include suffering,

Rick:

right?

Kayley:

Or was that a result of my disobedience?

Rick:

It, it, it can include suffering.

Kayley:

So we gotta talk about this then.

Rick:

Okay. Okay. So this was when my wife died. Yes. Uh, for those people who listen to you don't know me, my wife, my first wife died in 2005, suddenly left me with three small children and turned my life way upside down. I got really angry at God just. I got angry at everything, but I got really, really angry at God because I asked the age old question, do you love me? Does God love me?

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

Can God do anything?

Kayley:

Yes.

Rick:

Well, if he loves me, why doesn't he stop this? Mm. Either he's not powerful enough to stop it or he doesn't really love me.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

I don't know which one it is, but right now I'm kind of mad about it all. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I read a book, I, I fought this stuff and I'm pastoring a church. Right. And, uh, read a book by Max Lucado with the title of It's Not About You.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

And there's a chapter in there outta John nine where it talks about the man born blind and the disciples say, why yes? Was the man born blind? Was it his sin? Or his parents? In Jesus said in the Greek, you are stupid. He said, he said. This man hurts. Mm-hmm. So that God will look good.

Kayley:

Yeah. Oh wow. For God's glory.

Rick:

All of a sudden I shifted from, um, God's not my best friend riding around with me. God is sovereign.

Kayley:

Yeah. And if

Rick:

God looks at my life and says, I cripple you. So that I look good. Then I go and thank you, God.

Kayley:

Okay, now let's talk theology, because I also was thinking recently God's will started in the garden and his will was for us to not be around sin at all. Sure. To not have death. Good to be

Rick:

heaven.

Kayley:

Yeah. For, yeah, heaven. So, and in heaven there's no death. There's no pain. So that, would you say that that is technically God's original design yet? Sin entered when the curse happened, fall happened, and now because of that, we deal with fallen nature and the consequence of sin. Sure. Which is death.

Rick:

Yeah. He uses all things right for his good. So sin causes a man to be born blind. God flips the script

Kayley:

mm-hmm.

Rick:

And uses it to make himself look good. It's crazy.

Kayley:

But also he'll make you look good too.'cause if you turn it in his fav in your favor, he will turn it in your favor if you give it over to him.

Rick:

Our struggle comes in to when God doesn't give sight. In other words, you were born blind, you're staying blind. But God, I really wanted to make you look good by this story ending well, so there, there are a lot of stories in scripture that don't end happily ever after. We don't talk about 'em a lot, but they're there.

Kayley:

Well, I mean, I can name a few, but maybe give me, gimme the one that you're thinking in this context. So,

Rick:

uh, old Testament, I just, uh, we just went through this and now I can't remember. It is the story of Hagar.

Kayley:

Oh yeah.

Rick:

The story of Hagar who life got so bad. She ran away to try to get back to Egypt since she was on the road, I believe to Shur Yes. Yeah. That's the road that led back to Egypt. Mm-hmm. Trying to go home.

Kayley:

Mm-hmm.

Rick:

Trying to go home.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

And the angel says, Hey, why don't you go back and endure the suffering? Go read it. You go back and you submit to that woman, it's making your life miserable. Whose name? It is Sarah,

Kayley:

but at the same time, God said you are gonna be blessed.

Rick:

Well, that's the second time she ran twice.

Kayley:

Oh,

Rick:

she ran twice. First time she didn't have a baby. Second time, she has this, this baby who's now a teenage son and he has made fun of Sarah's little baby, right? Isaac And Sarah sees him. Kind of persecuting him, making his life difficult. It goes to Abraham and says, you're gonna have to get this woman outta town. The Bible says that Abraham went in before dawn and woke her and sent her away. Mm. And it also says this, this was very hard for Abraham because, because it was his son.

Kayley:

Yeah.

Rick:

So he sends her away. They're in the middle of the desert. They're gonna die. The water ran out and the bread ran out. She puts Ishmael under a tree to die and the scripture says he began to cry out. It doesn't tell us what he cried out.

Kayley:

Interesting.

Rick:

And she goes away 'cause she can't stand to hear it. And the Bible says this. Go read it. It is amazing. And God heard the cry of the boy. Mm. And he just opened her eyes to the well and stuff. So that's the second time. That's when your child's gonna be a blessing. Mm-hmm. That's when you know I'm gonna make him a great nation. That there was promise, but the story just ends. We don't know if how, how, what happened to her. Yeah. Um, there are a number of of stories that, of individuals. Leah's story didn't really end well. No.

Kayley:

Poor Leah.

Rick:

Uh, so, so, but, but. Something, especially in our American mind, makes us think that if it's in the Bible, it's like a fairytale. Yeah. And they all lived happily ever after. Yeah. No, that is not true. Paul's life, right? The apostles, yeah. All of their lives were like, like, and they got married and had 16 kids and they were all really wealthy and their kids were all straight A students and one the best athletes on the team. That's what we pray for.

Kayley:

Uh, well we pray, you know, it's like if you, you can gain the whole world and lose your soul. Like, what, what good is that?

Rick:

But we want the whole world and not to our soul,

Kayley:

but yeah, we want both. And so, uh, it's really interesting. But God doesn't promise us the whole world. He does promise us peace that passes understanding though, and joy. Mm-hmm. And life abundant, but it's his version of life abundant.

Rick:

Well, I, I think that, that my life experiences and, and a couple of moments of, I would call light bulb moments spiritually for me, reset my theology. Hmm. I believe in a sovereign God who does and can do anything he wants, and he doesn't have to go, Hey Rick, is this okay with you? Uh, he does. Yeah. My job is just simply to go, you're still my God. Uh, at the same time I believe that he gives me free will. Yeah. They go, well, how do you resolve those? Not my job. When it is my job, I've elevated myself to the position of God.

Kayley:

Yeah. no,

Rick:

and, and so do I believe that, that you have free will and God is sovereign. I do. I do. And at the same time, I believe it's God's will that all men be saved and that not all men will choose him.

Kayley:

Yeah, it's true.

Rick:

so, so yes. I was looking forward to that question because that passage in John nine is just so rich when you think, you know, how many years did this guy endure suffering for the simple purpose to make God look good?

Kayley:

Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure he, he, but he was so happy after Sure. Because he got his sight. Yes. And then he was a miracle. Right. And it, it totally upset the idea of like generational curse as well. And I think that was a good thing for the Jewish people to see. Right. Because for the longest time they believed that Right. The curse is from the father. So there was so much to that. To that miracle. But man, this is really good and we're out of time.

Rick:

It's hard to believe it went by that fast. I

Kayley:

know.'cause there's so many other good questions, but, uh, no, this is so good and I just. My prayer is that it goes out to all the right ears. So if you're listening today and it hit you, please let me know. Go to biblebish.com, send me an email. Tell me, Hey, this actually really set me on the next track and it cleared up some things that I'm dealing with. And, um, thank you Rick for coming.

Rick:

Oh, thank you for the invitation.

Kayley:

This is awesome. I

Rick:

really enjoyed it and you can

Kayley:

listen to his messages too at the road, choctaw

Rick:

road.com,

Kayley:

choctawroad.com, theroad.tv on Spotify, iTunes, all that other stuff, and go follow along and then like, and subscribe all the places. You're amazing. You, you be blessed. May God bless you, keep you, may his face shine upon you and all of that in the name of love.

Rick:

Thanks. Amen. Amen.